There are no perfect people which means there are no perfect relationships. So if you are in any real relationship this means that you will experience hurt, so forgiveness is integral for healthy, authentic relationships. Through forgiveness we grow and find freedom, join us for this conversation with Robert and Chad about forgiveness.
Make sure to subscribe to our podcast where you are listening to us so you’ll never miss an episode. While you’re at it, if you found value in this conversation we’d love it if you left us a review – or shared this podcast with a friend. Doing that will help us reach and help more people meet know and follow Jesus.
You are always welcome to join us online or in-person for one of our services every week at live.sv.cc.
There are no perfect people which means there are no perfect relationships. So if you are in any real relationship this means that you will experience hurt, so forgiveness is integral for healthy, authentic relationships. Through forgiveness we grow and find freedom, join us for this conversation with Robert and Chad about forgiveness.
Make sure to subscribe to our podcast where you are listening to us so you’ll never miss an episode. While you’re at it, if you found value in this conversation we’d love it if you left us a review – or shared this podcast with a friend. Doing that will help us reach and help more people meet know and follow Jesus.
You are always welcome to join us online or in-person for one of our services every week at live.sv.cc.
Announcer:
Welcome to the Loving God. Loving people podcast, a podcast where we dig deeper into what it looks like to live a life where in the end, all that matters is God and people. Each week, we will have candid and authentic conversations about how every day brings a fresh beginning and that the best is yet to come, as we work together to help fulfill the mission that Jesus has given us. Now, here's our host.
Robert Watson:
Well, hey, guys, my name's Robert and I'm the teaching pastor here at Sun Valley. And I'm with Chad Moore, our lead pastor.
Chad Moore:
Hello, everybody.
Robert Watson:
I bet you like that. I don't think you have to do that, but if that, if you think that's going to increase our listenership.
Chad Moore:
I want to do that every time. That's going to be my signature step into the podcast.
Robert Watson:
Your sign-on?
Chad Moore:
That's my signature move.
Robert Watson:
That's cool. That's cool. Today, we are recording episode number two.
Chad Moore:
Hello, everybody.
Robert Watson:
You can stop that. They heard it the first time.
Chad Moore:
So weird.
Robert Watson:
And this is our Loving God. Loving people podcast. We're talking about relationships. We're talking about what we're talking about on the weekends. And today's topic, we're going to be talking about forgiveness.
Chad Moore:
Yeah.
Robert Watson:
And this is a topic that whenever we preach on it, whenever it comes up in conversations, people just seem to engage. People are emailing us, "Hey, that was so helpful." Why is forgiveness such a big deal when it comes to relationships?
Chad Moore:
Yeah. So, we track how many people are watching or listening to sermons online, and this is always at the top of the list. And I think that is because there are no perfect people, so there are no perfect relationships. Because there are no perfect relationships, that means any real relationship that we ever have, sooner or later, the other person's going to hurt you. You're going to hurt them. Forgiveness is absolutely necessary for real authentic relationships. You can have acquaintances without forgiveness, but you can't have real friends. And you can't have any kind of intimacy in a healthy way in relationships without forgiveness. It's just a great need.
Robert Watson:
Yeah. I noticed a lot of times when it comes to relationships, especially nowadays, when things get tough, when there's some kind of an offense or you hurt me, you hurt my feelings, you wounded me, we tend not to deal with it. We tend not to work through forgiveness. We just run away. We just cut off the relationship.
Chad Moore:
Well, man, self-righteousness has run amuck in current reality. I'm self-righteous because I wear a mask. I'm self-righteous because I don't wear a mask. I'm self-righteous about this when it comes to whatever's going on. It's just crazy right now. We are much more, I think, in society probably tribal. We're much more tribal. We much more represent our camp than ever before. And you can only do that with a tone of self-righteousness. People who are humble tend to listen to other people. People who are self-righteous don't. And so, yeah, if there was ever a need for humility and forgiveness, it's right now.
Robert Watson:
Yeah. I'm offended that you're offended. Or I'm offended that you're not offended. I'm just offended all the time. And that seems to be social media has heightened that sense too, of that tribalism and that us-them whatever it is. And people aren't working through conflict. People aren't dealing with the reality that, "Hey, maybe I'm at fault for something. Maybe I've done something wrong here." You don't see a whole lot of that going on, on social media and acknowledging, "Hey, I need your forgiveness because I messed up here."
Chad Moore:
Yeah. Right now, if I were to Instagram out, "I like apples more than oranges," somebody is going to comment, "Well, maybe you just don't understand oranges. Educate yourself." Right?
Robert Watson:
Yep. Yep.
Chad Moore:
It's going to be that whole kind of thing. But yeah, I mean, there's great need to just chill out a little bit, I think in the moment. And bitterness, and unwillingness to forgive is a form of self-righteousness. So, one of the reasons why we're all running around so offended and easily offended and bitter and all of that, is there is a sense of pride and tribalism at the moment. So, forgiveness, big deal.
Robert Watson:
Yeah. Yeah. Any time somebody's offended, or any time somebody's wounded or hurt or sinned against, whatever phrase you want to use, they go on a journey. It's either a journey down the road of bitterness of just, "Man, this person owes me" and yada yada, or they go down the journey of forgiveness, but there's really not another path to go down. And a lot of people are choosing, "I'm going to go down the road of bitterness." Why do you think that's our natural kind of human default to go that path as opposed to the forgiveness path?
Chad Moore:
Yeah. So, that's actually a really philosophical, deep question. We could spend easily an hour just talking about that question. So, I'm going to answer it, but I'm going to compress the answer. Reality is, everybody's going to experience pain in life. You cannot be in a relationship of any depth without there being an exchange of hurt at some point, whether it's simple as, somebody ignored me when they should've gave me attention, all the way to somebody really betrayed me. We're going to experience pain in this life. We're going to experience pain in relationships. And what I would say is, first part of my answer is, pain will change you, but not necessarily for the good. You have to choose that.
Robert Watson:
Yeah.
Chad Moore:
In choosing forgiveness, you grow. Your soul grows. You mature. In choosing bitterness, your soul doesn't grow. Your soul begins to close. It does the opposite. And you begin to protect yourself. And in self-protection, it keeps you from experiencing love because love can't get in. I told you, this is a big philosophical answer. And maybe we can go a little deeper, if you want to. But the reason that we choose bitterness is because it's easier. It's easier not to grow. It's easier. So, let's think about it physically. It's easier to sit on the couch and watch Netflix and eat lots of bags of chips and all that, than it is to go work out and eat right. But one is to your detriment and one is for your good. And so, we choose bitterness because it's easier.
Robert Watson:
Yeah.
Chad Moore:
The problem is, it destroys. Bitterness closes off the human soul. It shuts the door on love, from it going out and it coming in. Bitterness eats the human soul. It keeps it from functioning. But it is harder to forgive. But in forgiveness, we find freedom. We grow, we mature. And in forgiveness, little pastor talk here, in forgiveness, God changes us and makes us more like him. To forgive is to agree with heaven. To forgive is to be on God's side. To forgive is to agree with Jesus. So, but it's harder.
Robert Watson:
So, unpack that a little bit more, because we're talking, so the natural thing, our human nature is, go down the path of bitterness. What we're talking about is something supernatural. So, talk about the supernatural side of forgiveness. Where does it come from? What is this idea of the root of it? Is it just ignoring, "Okay. Yeah, it was bad, but I'm just going to ignore it" or whatever. Talk through the significance of the supernatural that allows us to forgive others.
Chad Moore:
Yeah. So, it's the opposite of ignoring. Forgiveness is the opposite of ignoring. Forgiveness is absorbing. So, it's not ignoring, it's absorbing. It's something different, which makes it so difficult. So, biblically speaking, to forgive is to cancel a debt. In the series we're in right now, talking about hope and the Lord's prayer, I mean, right in the middle of the Lord's prayer is, forgive us our debts as we also forgive our...
Robert Watson:
Debtors.
Chad Moore:
Our debtors. So, you just think about the flow of that, there's a receive and give in that. Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors, which really, everything in the Christian life works this way. We receive forgiveness from God, "forgive us our debts." And we give forgiveness to others. We forgive our debtors. So, the more that we surrender to that flow, the more that our soul begins to grow. Forgiveness is not ignoring the issue. It's looking at it in the eye. It's saying, "This is what that person owes me. They owed me their time. They didn't give it to me. They owed me their respect, and they gossiped about me. They owed me their love and faithfulness and they betrayed me. They owe me."
Chad Moore:
So, to forgive is to identify what the person owes you, and then absorb that. "I'm going to cancel the debt." Instead of saying, "You owe me, you owe me, you owe me," I'm going to say, "God paid that debt for me. I'm going to receive that, and end that. I'm going to cancel the debt for you." We cannot give what we do not have, so we receive from God, and in that, we let the debt go. But it ain't easy.
Robert Watson:
Sure. Well, what in life that's really, really good is also really, really easy? There tends to be work involved, but it's for our benefit, which totally makes sense in this case too.
Robert Watson:
Now, one of the things I love about, even as Jesus is praying that prayer is, to my understanding, he's the first one to equate hurt and all of that with debt. He uses a financial term to help us understand, this is what it is. Because it used to just be, "Hey, you hurt me, so I'm going to hurt you back equally. And I'm just going to level the..." But Jesus puts it in this other framework of going, "There's a debt." And in many ways, that debt can't be paid back because that's something from the past. That's something that can't be undone. It can't be changed. And the whole eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth or whatever it is. How do you ever know when the score's finally been leveled and even between the people?
Robert Watson:
But he does it that way. And then, on the cross, he uses this term, "Te tellasti." So, talk to us about... So, we talked about, okay, when you sin against somebody, there's a debt. And then he uses that phrase on the cross, as he's paying for our debt. Talk to us about the significance of that and what that means for us.
Chad Moore:
Yeah. So, "Te tellasti" is the last thing that Jesus says. It's translated, "It is finished." It's also an accounting term, and can be translated that the debt has been paid. If you picture a cross in your mind at the moment, so if you're listening, just picture a cross in your mind. It is both vertical and horizontal. The cross is a relational symbol. It's God helping us. And it's God equipping us to love and serve and help others. It's a relational symbol. Right relationship with God, vertical. Right relationship with others, horizontal. Again, I learn to receive from God, and then I give to others.
Chad Moore:
When Jesus died on the cross, he paid the debt of all of my sin. Vertical, right relationship with God. And then horizontal, he also paid for all the sin that would be done unto me. So, the power of the cross, the power of the debt has been paid. The power of "Te tellasti" is, love God, love people. As I receive the love of God, I can love others. As I receive the forgiveness of God, I can forgive others. As I receive the patience of God in my life, I can be patient with others. On and on and on and on it goes. So, that debt has been paid. It's about Jesus paying for all of my sin, and all of the sin done unto me.
Chad Moore:
I'm not speaking out of a theory here. This is not a theological philosophical conversation for me. I grew up in a broken home. My parents divorced when I was eight. A lot of forgiveness needed there. There are things in my mind that should have been that weren't. In my life, I've had friends betray me, talk bad about me, be jealous of me, on and on and on it goes. I've had some real challenges in my marriage. And some things have happened in the marriage that I never thought would happen. Forgiveness for me is very much at the root and core of what it means for me to follow Jesus. And as time has gone on, I've gotten a little bit older. I've heard a little, a few stories, right? A little more stories of real raw people who are authentic and honest. Forgiveness is at the core of all of us following Jesus.
Chad Moore:
So, yeah, but "Te tellasti" is, God pays for my sin. And he also helps me, empowers me with all the sin done unto me to get over it, to move on, to forgive, and in that, to grow.
Robert Watson:
Yeah. It's in light of his grace that we can now offer grace. It's not just the Christian life is, you got to change your behavior and you got to do better and try harder. No, it's all in light of understanding the reality of what God's already done for us. And in light of that, now we're freed up to be able to share that with others.
Chad Moore:
Yeah, man, I love the way you said that. So, the Christian life, I'm going to expound on something you said about grace there. The ebb and flow of the Christian life is grace. I receive it. I give it away. Grace is unmerited favor. It's getting what you don't deserve. It's giving other people what they don't deserve. Mercy is, don't give me what I deserve. Grace is, I give you even more than that. I give you what you don't deserve.
Robert Watson:
Yeah.
Chad Moore:
Right? I bless you, even though you don't deserve it. And the ebb and flow of the Christian life is grace.
Robert Watson:
Yeah.
Chad Moore:
Yeah. I receive it and give it away.
Robert Watson:
Now, for some people, they understand, "Okay, I'm going to give forgiveness away to others. I understand that God's forgiven me." But sometimes, I'll hear people say, "But I can't forgive myself." What would you say to that? What advice would you give that person? Give me your thoughts.
Chad Moore:
Well, first of all, I would say, here's what that person is. Normal. Right? I mean, no, dude, nobody disappoints me more than me. So, when I've been home, and my family might be disappointed because I was supposed to do something, didn't do, nobody's more disappointed in me than me. I can't live up to my own standard, much less God's. But let's just think about, I can't forgive myself. Okay. Well, God says he can forgive you. God says he's already forgiven you. So, here's little bitty, tiny finite you saying that your standard is higher than the big, massive, almighty, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, right? Lord God.
Robert Watson:
Yeah.
Chad Moore:
And you're saying that God can forgive me, but I can't forgive me. There's a silliness to that. My counsel to somebody who's dealing with that, as I would just say, forget about forgiving yourself. You don't need to. Don't focus on whether or not you can forgive yourself. Even if you need to forgive somebody else, don't focus on whether or not you can do that. Focus on the forgiveness of God. Lean into it, receive it, bask in it, lay in it, soak it, meditate on it. Let it wash over you. And there will be a freedom that you otherwise are incapable of having on your own.
Robert Watson:
Yeah.
Chad Moore:
The beauty of the Christian life is the presence of God.
Robert Watson:
Yeah.
Chad Moore:
So, why are you dealing with this, worried about whether you can forgive you? Just let God it.
Robert Watson:
Yeah. And I think what they're saying when they say that is, they have feelings of guilt. Or even, they have feelings of shame. And so, they're saying, "I can't forgive myself because I still feel guilty. I still feel shame over what I've done" or "I'm embarrassed" or whatever that is. Same advice, you would just say, start focusing on something else or?
Chad Moore:
Well, I would say first of all, welcome to the human race. Right? I've never met a parent of a teenager that wasn't carrying around some shame and guilt and "I could have done better," because teenagers are crazy.
Robert Watson:
Yeah.
Chad Moore:
I know, because I got one and I love him, but there are days I might not like somebody very much in my house. That's just real. And you think about all the things you could have done, should have done, would have done, but you are where you are. In everything in life, it's by the grace of God go I. So, I think, yeah, it is learning to receive the grace of God in your life. We focus so much on ourselves. Christianity is not about self-focus. It's about father focus. It's about Jesus focus. That's why it's called Christianity. It's not named after me. It's not about me. It's about what Jesus has done for me. And so again, Christian life's about receiving. It's about letting God work in me and through me. It's not about doing, it's about what's been done for me.
Chad Moore:
So yeah, the more that we're relying on our own effort, our own power, our own works, our own unworthiness, our own self-disappointment, the more trapped and powerless we're going to be. The more that we rely on the grace of God, the goodness of God, the love of God, the power of God, the more free we're going to be. And since I'm preaching a little sermon, I'm going to add one more.
Robert Watson:
Go ahead. Do we need to get out our notes and take notes on the bullet points?
Chad Moore:
I was waiting on an amen for you on this podcast
Robert Watson:
Preach.
Chad Moore:
But I'm getting jack squat over here.
Robert Watson:
Right.
Chad Moore:
Just think about this. So, now I'm going to talk about the devil. So, we call him Satan. That name means the accuser. That's exactly what we do to ourselves. We're so self-focused on what we can do, what we can't do, our shame, how we feel about ourselves, that we literally step into the place of the accuser and we accuse ourselves. God is going, "Look, I'm the judge of the whole freaking universe. I'm almighty. Again, I know everything. I'm infinite. My standard is higher than you can even possibly comprehend. And I say that that's been paid in Jesus, and you're forgiven."
Robert Watson:
Yeah.
Chad Moore:
So, we can argue with God and remain trapped, or we can surrender to God and truly be free.
Robert Watson:
That's testament to the level of sacrifice that Jesus made. And to continue to accuse ourselves, in a way, we're diminishing the work of Jesus, without even realizing that's what we're doing. And going, "Yeah, that wasn't enough."
Chad Moore:
Well, yeah. So, Jesus absorbed the debt. To forgive is to absorb some pain.
Robert Watson:
Yeah.
Chad Moore:
When you cancel somebody's debt, that's not the erasing of pain, but it slows down and kills how long the pain is actually going to last. Bitterness will last you lifelong. The pain of forgiveness will eventually set you free. And so, it's really what? You pick your pain.
Robert Watson:
Yeah.
Chad Moore:
I want the pain of freedom.
Robert Watson:
Yeah.
Chad Moore:
Not the pain of bondage.
Robert Watson:
Yep.
Chad Moore:
But yeah. So, when Jesus absorbed it, he absorbed all that pain, all that payment. He could say that the debt has been paid because he's really wealthy. I mean, his righteousness is unending, and so all of that righteousness could absorb all that sin.
Robert Watson:
Yeah.
Chad Moore:
Yeah. There's more grace in Jesus than there is sin in you.
Robert Watson:
That's great. I love that line.
Chad Moore:
Let's just own that.
Robert Watson:
Yeah. Yeah.
Chad Moore:
Right? Why are we messing around with all this shame and guilt and self-righteousness? Just let it go and let Jesus be Jesus in your life.
Robert Watson:
Yeah. Yeah. So good. Well, we're running-
Chad Moore:
Easy to say, hard to do.
Robert Watson:
Yeah. Yeah. We're running short on time. I do have one more question I want to ask you, because I think it's important for people to hear Chad answer a left-field question once in a while. So, who you're voting for, for president?
Robert Watson:
Just kidding.
Chad Moore:
I'll answer the question. That's a line from A Few Good Men.
Robert Watson:
Here's what I want to know.
Chad Moore:
That got him in trouble.
Robert Watson:
So Lindsey, we were driving the other day, my wife Lindsey, and she asked me this question and I thought, that's a good question. She said, "If you could write in, or you just choose who's going to be the next president, any person in America, who would you choose, right now?" Go.
Chad Moore:
That's your question to me?
Robert Watson:
That's the question. Yep.
Chad Moore:
Okay. I thought you were giving me Lindsey's example.
Robert Watson:
No, no, no. This is the question.
Chad Moore:
Oh, man.
Robert Watson:
So, Chad Moore's about to decide the next president of the United States.
Chad Moore:
I'll vote for you, Robert. Robert Watson for president.
Robert Watson:
Yeah, I don't know if I want that job.
Chad Moore:
You know who I wish would run for president and she hasn't? It's Condoleezza Rice.
Robert Watson:
That's a good one.
Chad Moore:
So, I know there's different people with that name, but Condoleezza Rice, she served with George W. Bush in her administration. I think she teaches at Stanford now. She went back to Stanford. She is just intelligent, experienced. I think she has a strong grit about her that is necessary for that office. So, you have that experience, that grit. I mean, she's a woman of character. And I think she would also have the ability to unify our country in a way that we desperately need. So, Condi, if you're listening, Condi for president. I read an autobiography that she wrote a few years ago. She spoke at a leadership thing.
Robert Watson:
I heard her speak. Yeah.
Chad Moore:
Yeah. And I bought it and read it. Just her story and where she comes from and who she is. Now, I didn't realize I'm a mega-fan of hers as I am, now that I'm talking about it. You know what? Yeah, I think I would vote for Condi Rice.
Robert Watson:
All right. Well now, our listeners know.
Chad Moore:
That was from left field.
Robert Watson:
That was.
Chad Moore:
My answer's from left field, but that's who comes to mind. Talking about forgiveness today, I know that you are going to be preaching on that soon here in this series, it's...
Robert Watson:
Oh, when they're listening to this, I will have already preached it.
Chad Moore:
Okay.
Robert Watson:
Yeah.
Chad Moore:
So, Robert recently preached on this. Go back and do yourself a favor and listen to that sermon. It's one of the most important lessons to learn in life. Because bitterness will close the door on your ability to give and receive love. And it actually affects all of your relationships.
Robert Watson:
Yeah.
Chad Moore:
It will paralyze you. And yet, forgiveness will set you free.
Robert Watson:
If I'm bitter towards one person, it's actually affecting my ability to receive love from another person.
Chad Moore:
Absolutely. It affects your relationship with God. I'll just throw this out there and then we'll leave it hanging. I mean, bitterness ultimately is an issue between you and God. So, deal with God on it first, and then go from there. But forgiveness will set you free.
Robert Watson:
That's good. Well, thanks for listening, guys, to our second episode of the Loving God. Loving people podcast. And Chad, thanks for giving us your time.
Chad Moore:
Thanks for the time.
Robert Watson:
What's your sign-off going to be?
Chad Moore:
My sign-off is, goodbye, everybody. It's kind of like the first one, signature move.
Robert Watson:
Yeah. No, it's good. It's going to catch on.
Chad Moore:
Goodbye, everybody.
Robert Watson:
Love it.
Chad Moore:
You don't love it.
Robert Watson:
It's good enough for episode two.
Chad Moore:
Yeah. Good talk today.
Announcer:
Thanks for joining us this week on the Loving God. Loving people podcast. Make sure to subscribe to our podcast wherever you're listening to us, so you'll never miss an episode. While you're at it, if you found value in this conversation, we'd love it if you left us a review, or shared this podcast with a friend. Doing that will help us reach and help more people meet, know, and follow Jesus. And lastly, you're always welcome to join us online or in-person for one of our services every week at live.sv.cc. Thanks for joining us.